Interview With Behest Zine, issue #3, October 23rd 2009.

Hails! How are you there? 

Amalgamoth: Excellent. Low on funds, yes, but high on ideas and inspiration.

Zaragil: Not bad, thank you. It's been totally hot these days but a storm just went by and it's easier to breathe. Other than that, I finished a bunch of music reviews, replied to some mail, bought something to read and a new knife... I've been playing with it while listening to music just a few minutes ago, actually.

So, some people thought you're NSBM band? Now you made said that you're more to pagan BM, right?

Amalgamoth: Far more interesting to me are things like spiritual Alchemy, Pantheism and Naturalistic Paganism (Perhaps someone misread NPBM for NSBM?).

Zaragil: Ah, it's just MySpace. When we made a page there we described our music as "Chaotic Pagan Black Metal" and it was pretty clear to us that "chaos" represents inspiration, creativity from unknown sources, our style of playing - and "pagan" represents our views which are a combination of Heathenism, Pantheism and in my case some other sources (like alternative science or a few other aspects of spiritualism). But, again, it's stupid MySpace full of stupid Nazis who don't want to say they are Nazis so they write "Pagan" or something because of the censorship. They just look for the word "pagan" and don't read the rest. So, some of them sent us friend requests, and when we realized we're attracting Nazis we said we're not Nazis, damn it - and they started deleating us from their friends lists, haha. Who cares. I'm the one mostly taking care of the Ophidian Forest MySpace site and I've noticed that NSBM people are just a sad, desperate bunch, really. Like, American NSBM bands don't speak Italian so they think that Italian NSBM must be the real deal. Italians don't understand Croatian so they think that Croats probably know what they are doing. Croats don't understand German so they think Germans are the "true thing" and Germans probably think that French NSBM is the "real thing", and in reality none of them knows what they are talking about. If you translate their conversations it's just slogans and talk about girls and alcohol. A bunch of rock star wannabes.

Otrebor: It's amusing for me to contrast the notion of paganism as applied to US pop culture, vs. this definition discussed in this interview and in black metal in general. So-called "pagans" here are generally assocated with "hippie" types --- people who are vegan, love the earth, and are often into the "Wiccan" scene, which from my limited knowledge, has something to do with romanticising being a witch. Personally, my alignment with any values pagan goes along with my value of nature and conservation.

What do you think about NS themes in BM, anyways?

Amalgamoth: BM and NS is something of an oxymoron. For a start: In a 3rd Reich situation it surely would have been declared "Entartete Music" (degenerate music), it would be shunned as unhealthy for the masses (like it should be!). BM is a very collective-unfriendly kind of music. It very much revolves around individualism. I wanted to track down a quote from Dr Joseph Goebbels (the German Nazi propaganda minister in the 1930s and 40s) about sleep as the only private property that is allowed, but instead I found another fine one. He is reported to have said: "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character". In that perspective I assume that many neo-Nazis in music act in some conviction that simplistic rhetorics will help to raise their public profile. Why want that? Why be a populist and try to be underground at the same time? Often the argument is used that it's good because it's hateful and heroic. I think that's cheap and extremely cliché, and the 'heroic' bit is nothing but historically incorrect.

Zaragil: If someone started singing how one breed of dogs is better than another breed, everyone would laugh. Especially me, as from my experience dogs of mixed breed are healthier, often more intelligent and genetically better equipped to deal with different situations. And someone sings that one breed of humans is better? Why stop at that? Why not sing that taller people are better, or that bald or left-handed people are better? It's just stupid, and what's the big deal with humans anyway? In my Pantheist worldview, the whole Universe is one entity where everything is connected and affects everything else. Humans are as important as trees or grass, even rocks. I can understand that your natural surroundings are important, and you have to respect them. Also it's good to appreciate traditions, history, art and science. But, greatest works of art, for example, were done by gifted individuals who had talent, inspiration and worked hard. You should appreciate them, and be inspired by their work. However, if you think you are better than someone else just because there was a genius in your country, then you're an idiot. Do something yourself! But, the NSBM people are proud because someone else did something, near the place where they were born, and I don't see a logic in that. Most humans aren't very bright, and they are quite useless, so I don't see a point in making them proud of being stupid. It makes them obedient, comfortable and shallow, and that's not a way to move forward. So, NSBM is, for me, the same as Christianity. If something is harmful for the Universe, it's our responsibility to deal with it. Right now, the most harmful thing is stupid humans.

Otrebor: Although I personally do not espouse the notions of National Socialism, I do find it interesting to consider what actual, social impacts occur that lead to make people feel they must express a sense of self-segregation and xenophobia. I don't think it's unfounded, and from my values of conservativism, I can relate to what I perceive as the driving force behind these values. On a seperate level, if I went around censoring what I listened to based on its overt or potential political/social message, there would be a lot less in my library. It's some fortune that it turns out that the most militantly dogmatic music --- as Zaragil pointed out, from Christian to NS --- is inane and clumsy in the extreme, so there's a whole lot less necessary inner debate over the rationalization of it being ok to listen to a band write music about destroying all sub-humans or praising the true god.

Then, would you introduce your band to readers?

Zaragil: Ophidian Forest is a band consisting of three individuals, living in three different countries. We create music by exchanging recordings via mail or e-mail, and still our music sounds like we were all playing in the same room - or, better, in the same forest. Otrebor (drums) is from the USA, Amalgamoth (vocals, keys) from The Netherlands and I'm from Croatia and play guitar and bass. Our music is, basically, black metal, but a bit hard to describe as we don't repeat ourselves much, have plenty of original ideas, and our own sound. We like to call it "chaotic" but it ranges from barbaric and furious to evocative and epic.

You have recently started to make your third album. How's with it?

Zaragil: I'd say we have recorded about two thirds of our parts so far. I still have to record a couple of guitar and bass tracks, and the drums and keys are mostly done. When we're done with the instrumental parts we'll have it all mixed, and then there will be a few surprises, but I don't think I should talk about those just yet. You'll know when it's done.

Otrebor: Our third record will be our most artistically adventurous yet. Like with any album I've been involved with, and particularly Ophidian Forest, the result will certainly be not at all as whatever conceived notions initially existed. It'll probably be much more interesting, and definitely more weird! It's something like getting to know one's children as they grow up.

So, you have 2 full-lenghts? Other releases? Would you tell us about your history?

Zaragil: We have two albums so far - "Redbad," which will be released soon, and "Plains" which will be released after that. We had some problems with the first label we were signed for, so we were left with two unreleased albums, but it is getting sorted out. Now we are signed to a young Dutch label called Ziekte-NL and things are moving in a good direction. Our history is quite a long story, but, shortly, all the three of us write for an American underground webzine called Maelstrom, and that is where we met, started contacting each other and decided to try and make some music of our own. No one has done something like that before, but for us it worked, and after the first album we just couldn't stop. Seems like a perfect way for us, because each of us is free to do whatever he wants, and still he has the others' recordings as guidance.

How did you choose or get into pagan BM? Was there plans for it?

Amalgamoth: I very much like the theme of Europe in pre-Christian times, and even now that the Christian church is dying, yet another troublesome religion from the Middle East is about to dominate Europe. I'd wish both of those alien religions had never occurred and that we could have kept and developed our European and nature-focused forms of worship from the Edda. Satanism needs a Bible to rally against, but Paganism is more able to level out opposites. Christianity has a tradition of taking things quite literally, but Paganism is more about symbolism and inner truths. This I find much more inspiring.

Zaragil: The BM part is easy, as it's the best music in the world for me, if done right. I feel emotionally and spiritually connected to it, and I thought I had something to say, because I was getting annoyed by the things that bands nowadays are doing, just repeating the same things that were already done or playing bland, boring BM and pretending that it has "atmosphere"... I wanted to prove that there are still plenty of riffs that haven't been written yet, and that it doesn't all have to sound the same. And, since, obviously, art has to be inspired by something, I just use my Pagan worldviews and try to translate them into sound.

By the way, you're a band from many countries, right? Is it easy? Do you nowadays live in same country or something? Do you have much possiblities (in your country)?

Amalgamoth: In the Netherlands I basically have a total freedom to like metal and create metal the way I want it. But it's an art not to become complacent and lazy-minded because of this freedom. One must stay sharp about what matters in life. I seldom go to concerts, but the last black metal event I went to was 2 years ago when I went to Arnhem to see Horna, and the venue was totally packed. That was evidence that black metal may be obscure, but pretty much lives beneath the surface. But like myself, I couldn't tell many Dutch black metal fans by their looks. I'm wearing my long hair "inside", as if I were part of a secret society. On the street, I don't want to advertise what I feel passionate about. And I don't want the silly stereotypes that outsiders have of black metal be projected on me.

Zaragil: Oh, we all live in our own countries. We never met each other, never even talked on the phone. I didn't have ANY possibilities until I met these two gentlemen, no one in my city knows what black metal is, there are no drummers or singers (and I certainly can't afford to buy drums too), no scene whatsoever. This was the only way. As opposed to Amalgamoth, I wear my long hair outside, haha. I don't dress particularly extreme because there's nobody I want to impress, but I'm sticking to long hair, black clothes and a few details just because it makes me feel better. Even like that, I stick out in my city but no one has an idea who or what I am. They look at me strangely, but what the hell - I guess I'm a proof that they are all the same and do nothing with their lives. It's just sad but one gets used to it.

Otrebor: If by "possibilities," I'm guessing you mean "possibilities to make music." San Francisco is a pretty good scene, although metal is not super strong here, particularly if you want to play metal with actual, able, melodic singing, which is next to impossible.

What do you think of the scenes out there?

Amalgamoth: Well, do you know Stanley Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut" film? Every full moon I go to this Satanic club in Amsterdam that is housed in a former church. Every time there will be a young lady dressed up as a "nun" and halfway between sunset and dawn a Chosen One will attempt to mount her for 66 long minutes. Sexual energy dedicated to the Dark One. Some kind of occult karezza. The last time had "Redbad" playing on the background. I think that at some point more cultists were listening than watching. I can't blame them. There's something formulaic about any scene.

Zaragil: Hahaha! Well, as I said, there's no scene where I live and metal in general is pretty much ignored. There are bands in bigger cities, but I seldom go anywhere. Haven't been on a live show in a few years, and when I was there it looked miserable, just a bunch of rich kids who think metal makes them cool and gives them an excuse for acting stupid and thinking they are something special. Shallow, really.

Otrebor: That's a pretty broad question. I can't answer what I think of all scenes out there. But I can say that the scene in the San Francisco Bay Area can look pretty tired and burnt out, unless one goes to some place in the East Bay like Berkeley's Gilman St, which has really raging and remarkable thrash shows, with 110 pound, 16-year old girls throwing themselves headlong into mosh pits.

Do you have much other projects and works going on at the moment?

Amalgamoth: Yes, we are working very hard on releasing our first two albums and completing the third album. And in the archive we still have material for a 25 minute EP, that will be developed further after the albums are ready.

Zaragil: This year I did something on the side, what I have always planned to do - made a solo album where I'm doing everything myself. And it's not an ordinary one-man black metal, because I didn't use anything apart from guitar, bass and some ambient recordings. The project is called Vovlieh and the album name is "The Halt". Well, it's some new things done the old way, call it ambient, black, minimalist or whatever. Again, quite original but simple, it's just that no one dared to do it before. It will probably be released this year as well, and I already have a few more ideas, but right now it's just work on the next Ophidian Forest.

Otrebor: I'm in a litany of other projects, which are as follows: Hellnaut (Pirate-themed grind), Rubicon (melodic prog/power metal myspace.com/rubiconmetal), Eishauch (doooooom), Dr. Heavy (idiot savant, traditional heavy metal), and Cestvs (thrash metal). I also used to be in a grind band called Utter Bastard, that had been around for about 10 years before it broke up.

Do you now have any plans for your band? Or are you just seeing what comes forward?

Amalgamoth: If you want to be in a band, you got to keep going, because it's not a machine that will run by itself. The difficulty with extreme music is how to be able to reach middle ground with fellow extremists. Black metal is like walking a tightrope. I have more respect for a black metalband that manages to keep it together for ten or fifteen years than U2 with the same line-up since 1978.

Zaragil: We're dealing with things as they come. No need for planning because they come whether we plan them or not.

Otrebor: Part of the great challenge within me is to be actively involved, and yet let the ride we're on go on its path.

How do you make your music and what influences you?

Amalgamoth: My influences: I have already told about subjects in previous answers, but musically there are many. My vocal style is from the generic Horna school of screeching. Harsh and hateful. Works for me. Perhaps a bit of Viking cleans here or there. My keyboard parts are influenced by stuff from the epic symphonic black metal genre, like Hellveto, an act from Poland that is far more inspired and complex than Summoning. As of lately I am listening an awful lot to Bal-Sagoth (Otrebor abhorrs them by the way, much to my amusement). Brilliant keyboard metal that is much more interesting than Rhapsody. The irony is that I am using really old equipment: a Yamaha model from 1989 that couldn't possibly sound as good or orchestral. It has a few sounds that might be among the best sounds that Striborg has never used. That's right, I also like the minimalism from Striborg's ambient music. By even greater contrast I could say: give me early Killing Joke or Gary Numan albums any time. Those Oberheim and Moog synths ruled back then!

Zaragil: I suppose we make music like any other band, except we're not in the same studio at the same time. It has some good and some bad sides, but when I hear some bands who can't do anything worthwhile even if they have all the money, equipment and skills, I'm proud of what we have done. And I better not start talking about how old my instruments, or strings are, haha. The tracks can be written by any of us, and then we all add the remaining layers. A song can start from a guitar track, a drum track... who knows, in the future some might be started with keyboard tracks. Nothing is impossible, as long as it drives us into exploring new possibilities. As for influences, we are all huge music fans and own thousands of albums. I'm influenced by basically anything that made an impression on me. When it comes to writing music, I just go for it - I try to come up with something that suits me, feels natural to play, sounds exciting, makes sense... and I work in such a way that I first write songs, then learn them, and then just record them in one take to keep them sounding raw and alive. When I'm in the right mood, it goes quite fast and spontaneous.

Otrebor: I approach playing drums like a feat of strength... like at any point, there's the possiblity that attempt will physically fail. There's been some conscious un-learning of that principle, which has led to greater expression and ability, and will lead to better and more balanced albums in the future, but in my mind, that enamorment with playing drums being a physical challenge will always drive me.

Anything else to tell us? Last words?

Amalgamoth: While our CD edition of debut album "Redbad" is due out soon, there is already a cassette version available and it includes some alternate versions, exclusive to that release alone. But for fanatics I can say it'll be worth to own both the cassette and the CD, because the latter will have very tasty artwork and all of the lyrics.

Zaragil: I'd like to thank you for this interview - we're obviously not a live band so this is a good chance for us to get some exposure. To anyone reading this - if the interview sounded interesting, come and visit us on www.myspace.com/ophidianforest and hear for yourself what we are talking about. I think you won't regret it. Heathen hails!

Otrebor: Thanks for the interview.